Tim Tams: "He never gave up hope, he never lost sight of his goal"

Guest post from Kosherman:

Readers of last week's AJN will notice the newspaper celebrating an extraordinary Yom Tov. No, I am not referring to Shavuot but rather to the exciting and fantastic news that Rabbi Moshe Gutnick has convinced Arnotts company to produce "Kosher" Tim Tams.

I must admit that those intellectual giants who administer the news on behalf of our community showed massive restraint when reporting this most amazing event in the history of the Australian Jewish community.

Yes, they actually limited the Tim Tam story to the front cover, an article on page 3 (squeezed in amongst a couple of molestation stories), a Kron cartoon and...drum roll...an editorial!!

To quote their excitement: “It is indeed a milestone that as of today, kosher consumers across Australia can walk into any supermarket or store or petrol station and purchase these iconic Australian biscuits,” gushed KA rabbinic administrator Rabbi Moshe Gutnick.

After all the recent public criticism of our rabbis - usually led by the  same AJN - isn't it  lovely to see them acknowledge that we still have warm-hearted rabbis who positively gush at the thought of Jews piling on the kilos. To quote: "He never gave up hope, he never lost sight of his goal"!

Though not the purpose of my post, a quick Google search will show that while the rabbi gushes on about his achievement, both he and the AJN fail to mention other issues associated with the product - health-wise and ethical.

If any reader is interested, here are a few links which show that there are others in the general community who won't recommend this delicacy:

This YouTube clip (WARNING: a non-tzeniusly dressed woman) lists all the unhealthy and even dangerous ingredients noted on the packaging.

And here's another clip.

And from this website:  The chocolate coating in Tim Tams is not made from cocoa, but a mixture of artificial colours of Tartrazine (102), Sunset Yellow (110), Allura Red (129), Brilliant Blue (133) and Caramel (150). These additives are all suspect carcinogens.

So despite becoming Kosher (and I am surprised at the AJN's excitement about this - it is usually full of advertisements for non-Kosher establishments and products), it is unclear if Tim Tams are good for you.

But back to the Kashrus issue.

Despite the well-known views of Rav M Moshe Feinstein zt'l who permitted the consumption of Chalav Akum (where there are govt supervision and penalties by the authorities for tampering or substitution), it is difficult these days, when Chalav Yisrael is readily available in nearly every communty of observant Jews, to find a Chareidi Rav who will these approve the use of  non-Kosher milk products. The fact is that most poskim hold that non-supervisied milk is actually 'treif' and if used in error the equipment has to be Kashered. This view is especially so amongst Chassidic groups - every single one. And Chabad, to the best of my knowledge, have certain stringencies regarding Chalav Yisroel that many other chassidim and Charedim don't require. Furthermore, even the Rabbanut Kashrut in Israel, which generally has lenient standards, is very strict on this.

See RabbiBakshi Doron re the psak of the Rabanut

RavM Eliyahu

A collection of quotes on the unacceptability of non-Kosher milk

So my question to the good rabbi is "Why?"

You being a thoroughly Frum Jew and a Chabad chassid who I have no doubt that Chalav Akum products have no place in your kitchen. Yes, I understand that being in charge of KA means that you must allow leniencies, especially for items that are necessary for certain groups of consumers. I refer to milk, butter etc.

But is it really so important that Australian Jewry gorge themselves with Original and Double-Coated Tim Tams?

I know that your NSWKA more or less stated (or admitted) that they have less stringent Kashrut standards that their Melbourne counterpart Kosher Australia. But really, is it necessary to go out of your way and make the effort to chase and convince Arnotts to produce 'Kosher' - Chalav Akum - chocolate biscuits? Is there really such a shortage in the 100% Kosher version? Rabbi, please visit Glicks, Grandma Moses (all which are under your supervision), Heimishe, Lichtenstein and the others in Melbourne and Sydney and you will be amazed what a range we already have.

Is it really the function of a Chassidic Rav to produce unnecessary and unhealthy products which are not 100% Kosher. After all, it's not as if Arnotts came begging to you for your Hechsher. By all accounts it was the other way around! In fact the front cover of this issue tells us that this Tim Tam 'miracle' was achieved "after a decade of hard work and  persuasion by the Kashrut Authority".

Imagine, wasting a decade for a half-Kosher unhealthy choclate snack!

Having written all this, today I received an email from that great crowd KCA warning us that only the 200gm (net) packets are acceptable (plus another few conditions).

Although the AJN article also mentioned this, my survey shows that very few people (like indeed myself) actually remember seeing these provisions. Thus anyone missing these may be consuming not only Chalav Akum but also tarfus!

I discussed this post over Yom Tov with my rabbi, who told me that though he agrees with my views 100% and encourages me to publish, he, for a number of reasons, could not publicly make these comments. I gently reminded him about לא תגורו מפני איש...

I have heard whispers that some in the Kashrut industry are getting worried about items being produced under Rabbi Meir Rabi and his "Kosher veYosher" Kashrut label. This is especially so now that Rabbi Rabi has publicly stated that his supervision aims to cater for those who are not overly stringent in their standards. I realise this may affect both KAs, but I suggest that you let him keep that sector of the Kosher market and you remain faithful to the more demanding standards that most Kashrut organisations worldwide are now seeking and which you often represent here in Australia,

And if that means not seeking out new customers like Tim Tams with its non-Kosher milk, so be it.

PS: I am trying to find the time to post my thoughts about that upstart Kashrut organsation "Kosher veYosher". Maybe in the next few days or weeks. 

"The Supervision Conundrum"

Guest post by Kosherman:
It has been a while since I last posted here. Meanwhile things are livening up in the world of Australian Kashrut. Of course I’ll be commenting here as they happen.

For today’s post, replicating the headline of Yankel Wajsbort’s article in this week’s Mizrachi newsletter seems most apt.

I picked up this packet of Gluten-free cake mix this week and noticed it says “Kosher Pareve”. Fine. Then I see it has the stamp of KA. Fine.

But then I notice another stamp:

For those who cannot read the tiny fonts, here is the wording on the stamp:

כשר למהדרין פארעווע

בהשגחת הרה''ג רב מרדכי זאב הכהן גוטניק שליט''א

ראב''ד דבד''ץ של ק''ק מלבורן והמדינה

Kosher Pareve. Under the Supervision of Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick. Melbourne Australia

That’s when questions began popping up in my mind. The conundrum and mystery here is:

1) Why the need for 2 supervisions? (It’s not like the case of products that have both Adass and KA stamps. There the producer is aiming at 2 distinctly separate groups, one which demands its own Kashrut standard.)

 2) Seeing that Rabbi Gutnick of the Melbourne Beth Din is one and the same person as Rabbi Gutnick the head of the KA, what’s the point?

3) Is the manufacturer paying 2 lots of fees?4) And would the second – non-KA – fee (all or partial) be paid to the Melbourne Beth Din – seeing that their name is used for the marketing?

5) Isn’t it strange that Rabbi Gutnick’s full-time employer, Elwood Shul, doesn’t get a mention on his stamp?

6) Remember that colossal hullaballoo recently regarding Rabbi Meir Rabi’s supervisions and him being criticised by the RCV for operating as an individual – as opposed to an organisation like KA and Adass? So what is happening here? Is Rabbi Gutnick himself moving towards again becoming independent by resuming his own Hashgacha?

7) Whilst researching this post, I was informed that the Melbourne Rabbi Gutnick’s Sydney brother, Rabbi Moshe, the head of the NSWKA also has his personal stamp of a number of products – in tandem with his organisation’s stamp. What do the committee and board members of both KAs think of this trend?

I have many more questions, but for starters this should suffice.

I would appreciate answers and comments – either via this blog's comment section or to my email address: kosherman1@gmail.com

Another NSW KA statement: "Every confidence in Melbourne Kashrut"

Just forwarded to us by a Sydney source:

The battle of the KAs

                                     

Post by Kosherman:

I wonder how Rabbi Moshe Gutnick and his KA will respond to the news that Melbourne KA is giving its Hashgacha to a Bondi Beach food manufacturer?

Could this be the start of a new trend? Both KA's spreading their wings to the other's hometown? Will this be "good for the Jews"?

The screenshot is from a recent post by the KCA - a Sydney-based Kosher consumers group.

CLICK TO ENLARGE

KA x 2, 3 or 4?

A reader forwarded a screen shot of the NSW KA's web page, where we learn that "NSW" has been dropped from their name and are now known as THE Kashrut Authority.

Presumably this was in response to Melbourne (nee Mizrachi) Kashrut namechange to Kosher Australia. It seems each organization wishes to give the impression that it represents the Australian Kashrut “industry”.

We have heard (not from anyone in an official position) that the board of Adass Vaad HaKashrus are considering a suggestion that they call themselves “Kosher Adass”. Add to that the Perth community’s KA WA and we may end up with 4 KA’s in Australia!

Which makes us a bit sorry for Rabbi Meir Rabi and his non-“KA” brand - “Kosher veYosher”.

However, there has long been a rumor that the business name of “Kosher Australasia” has been reserved by someone not associated with “Kosher Australia”. Maybe that person would be kind enough to transfer this registration to Rabbi Rabi - so he too can sport a “KA” label…

AJN report on Kosher veYosher

Took them an extra week, but the AJN finally catches up with AJNWatch...

Yankel Wajsbort: Kosher market in the US is worth almost $1 trillion !

Melbourne Kosher Consumer's Guest Post # 2:

Somehow I missed this in my earlier post.
Yankel Wajsbort also writes:

Set aside an hour once a month to contact companies via their websites or by phone. 
If they are not Kosher, ask them why they haven’t looked at Kosher certification – there are 20,000 Australian families who actively buy Kosher and the Kosher market in the US is worth almost $1 trillion.

A trillion! Where does he get his figures from?

We know that Americans are great exaggerators – but even the people who have the most to gain from pushing bloated figures eg, Menachem Lubinsky the person behind Lubicom Marketing (owners of Koshertoday.com and the industry’s main event – the annual Kosherfest), haven’t made such a ludicrous claim yet.

A simple search of the net reveals that in 2008 Lubinsky gave the figure as $12.5 billion and last year raised it to $200 billion - a gigantic increase. One would not be labelled an apikores if he didn't belive this.
But a trillion!? How and when did this happen? And what number can we expect in 2011?

The truth obviously is, that no one knows or has genuine numbers. Thus allowing all those who have a barrel to push to concoct and  number they feel - as indeed we see here.

Here are a couple of articles we found refering to Lubinsky's claims:

November 3rd, 2008  U.S.kosher market grows to $12.5b
An estimated 11.5 million Americans buy $12.5 billion of kosher foods, a new survey by LUBICOM Marketing Consulting shows.
http://www.shalomnewyork.com/kosher/us-kosher-market-grows-to-125-billion/

According to Menachem Lubinsky, co-producer and founder of Kosherfest, “Sales of kosher foods in the past year have increased by double-digits, significantly higher than the U.S. food market in general or for that matter other categories of specialty. Kosher has benefited from a constantly growing loyal base and the addition of many non-traditional consumers.” He credited the nation’s food retailers with having the “vision and wisdom to buy into a very dynamic and creative market.” The value of the kosher certified products market is over $200 billion, according to KosherToday, an industry newsletter.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=kosherfest

20,000 families in Australia actively buying Kosher?

Melbourne Kosher Consumer's Guest Post:

I have nothing but praise for KA's work in the Kashrut field. They do much good without the need to go right over the top.
Thus when I received the following email from Yankel Wajsbort today, I was a bit stunned. Exhorting consumers to call (harass?) food manufacturers is one thing. But asking them to use dodgy and ridiculous figures is a different ballgame altogether.
“If they are not Kosher, ask them why they haven’t looked at Kosher certification – there are 20,000 Australian families who actively buy Kosher”
20,000 families! That would mean some 100,000 souls – or almost 100% of Australia’s Jewish population.
Yes, it would be wonderful if such was the case. But sadly, this is far from the truth, and I am surprised that Yankel isn’t aware of this.

Sure, everyone should join in the campaign to improve Kashrut in Australia and increase product availability, but please keep in mind “Mid’var sheker tirchak”.

Another comment on Sydney Kashrut

A letter to the editor in this week's AJN:

The Sydney Kashrut Affair (part 2)

Continuing the saga of the Sydney Kashrut 'wars' ( http://tinyurl.com/yc3smq2 ), this week's AJN carries an almost half-page advertisement by the KA ("sponsored by a Kosher Consumer") plus a couple of letters in response to last week's harsh words of Lea Weiss.

That KA ad does not make for easy reading, being extremely long-winded and employing a tiny font size which really strains the eye. We doubt that too many readers will bother to read through the entire screed. We invite those readers that made the effort, to forward us their comments.

Zvi Rona's letter doesn't go very far in explaining the steep prices of Sydney's caterers. Whatever their 'quality', what can justify double and triple charges to that of Melbourne's caterers? As any Melbournian who has attended up-market weddings catered by Kosher Classique and Eshel will testify, it is sheer nonsense to claim that their their quality is not equal to Passion8. They, together with Ungar and Epicure have shown their flair and talents at functions attended by the highest echelons of the political and busniess world.
In fact the feedback that we received from readers who attended THAT wedding in Sydney was, that it was one of the most beautifully catered weddings that they had attended.
Ah, well, Al taam vare'ach ein lehisvake'ach.

As for Rona's claim that Chabadniks make their weddings in New York to be close to the rebbe, we have news for him. The rebbe sadly passed away 3rd Tammuz 1994 - almost 2 decades ago. But still chassidim continue to make their simchot in NY because of Sydney's hight catering costs. (We have received a number of off-blog emails confirming this.)
FACT:  Far fewer Melbourne Chabadniks travel to NY for the simchot.

As to Rona's suggestion that they should have their Simchot in Israel, the answer is, yes indeed. Many Sydneysiders do exactly that. Possibly for similar reasons.

Guest Post by Kosherman: A Concise History of Kashrut in Post-War Australia

The following post was submitted by "Kosherman" as a l-o-n-g comment to our post Australian Kosher News or Australian Treif News?

"Kosherman" seems to have more than average knowledge about the workings and recent history of Kashrut in Melbourne and Sydney. He has taken the time to give us so many interesting and unknown facts on this important topic that we feel it deserves a post of its own. Therefore we asked and received his permission to publish it as a Guest Post. (With the approval of the author, we have edited and made a few changes to parts of this post for clarity etc.)

We shall be more than happy to receive further information and comments from readers who have familiarity with the subject matter.

To introduce myself, I am a lifelong Kosher consumer who has resided in both Melbourne and Sydney and have for personal, communal and business reasons ‘stuck my nose’ into Kashrut matters.

My aim, one of these days, is to establish a blog specialising in all aspects of Kashrut in Australia. There is much to be recorded, believe me.

Often discussed is the cost of Kosher products, including meat and poultry, and why these are so much higher in Sydney than in Melbourne. It is no secret that caterers in Sydney pay more for supervision charges than those in Melbourne. While I can accept that certain Sydney Simcha Kashrut standards may be somewhat more stringent than Melbourne, the difference in charges seems extreme.

The KA website states:
Function Charges http://www.ka.org.au/index.php/Function_Charges.html

Functions up to $19.99 catering charge per guest - KA charge $1.20 per guest
Functions from $20.00 to $69.99 catering charge per guest - KA charge $4.27 per guest
Functions $70.00 and over catering charge per guest - KA charge $6.60 per guest
Kiddush - KA charge $180.20 flat fee

(I understand that there is also be an additional fee to pay for the Mashgiach/Shomer.) The above indicates that having catered Simcha in Sydney could cost an extra 10% for supervision.

In Melbourne as far as I can ascertain the fees are substantially lower. However for some reason Melbourne’s Kashrut authorities are not as open as the NSW KA and do not publicly state there charges. (If anyone knows, I would like to hear what these charges are.)

The reason why Melbourne’s fees are lower is obvious. Melbourne has more than the one single Kashrut authority. Competition is GREAT for us consumers. Does anyone doubt that if Kosher Australia or Adass didn’t have concerns about each other (and to some extent, Rabbi Meir Rabi’s “Kosher veYosher”), they too would consider higher charges?

The same goes for meat. Because Melbourne has 3 Kosher meat suppliers/hashgachot, the consumer benefits - by each one keeping the others honest. Interestingly,I hear that dozens of Sydney families purchase their meat from Unfanger in Melbourne. Why? Obviously his quality is excellent, but how much better than the Sydney butchers? The reason obviously has to do with price. For a large family, a few dollars per kilo adds up quite quickly and can make a huge difference in the budget.

Thus, the answer to the AJN’s recent Vox Pop question on whether we should have a single Kashrut authority in Australia must be a thunderous NO!. In fact consumers would be better off if there was even more Kashrut “competition” in all cities.

But to give credit where it is due, the NSW KA publishes a Directory which I recall is very reasonably priced ($10 or $20). But even better, their entire directory is available on-line – free of charge. That is definitely a great boost for Kosher consumers on tight budgets. It also comes handy when people travel on holidays and forget to bring along the directory. Just hop on-line and get all the info you need. A valuable resource which we should all save in our Bookmarks. www.ka.org.au/index.php/component/option,com_kosherdb/Itemid,60

Melbourne’s Kosher Australia, who charge $55 for their directory (the most expensive such booklet on the planet?) could learn from their Sydney colleagues.
(See: http://www.kosher.org.au/KAFB Renewal Blank 2009 Form.doc )

Here’s a potted (post-WW2) Kashrut history for the younger people reading this blog. Most of us oldies will have heard a lot of this.

Sydney originally had a Beth-Din-operated Shechita. (The BD also approved a few other products. Anyone remember McWilliam Wines?) A few additional items were produced under their label for Pesach use. This changed with the arrival of the “frum” Hungarians, ie, Sydney’s Adass community whose first rabbi, Rav Bernath, had been a Shochet in Budapest. They established an independent Shechita which I have been told even “exported” meat to discerning customers in Melbourne. (This was prior to the Melbourne Adass shechita being established.) Following the Adass/Yeshiva split, the Yeshiva too established a shechita, which went on for a number of years until, as I recall, both realised the stupidity of the double expenditure, and they joined forces, but still ‘competing’ with the Beth Din. Eventually it all became one and the Kashrut Authority came into being. These days, as we know, they are the only game in town.

Here's a differing POV - from the NSW KA website:

Why is there only one certification body in NSW?

Prior to the establishment of the KA (in 1990) there were numerous certification bodies in NSW. This was the cause of much angst and divisiveness within the community. People accepted only particular hechsherim, and so were unable to eat at each other’s tables and functions. The community together with the Rabbonim decided it was preferable to have a united body with a universally acceptable standard

In Melbourne, meanwhile, they had competing Batei Din/Shechita during and post-war years when Rav Gurevitz of Carlton established what was considered to be a higher Kashrut standard. However that didn’t last too long and the Melbourne Beth Din won the day. In the late 40s Melbourne’s Adass was established and they immediately brought out a shochet, the well-known Rev M S Rosenbaum. For a while they also had the services of Rav Betzalel Wilschansky. Old-timers tell me that most of the community’s “frum” newcomers and even a number of pre-war Carltoners - would only buy meat and poultry from one of the 4 (!!!) Adass supervised butchers and/or 2 poultry suppliers. Interestingly, for many years all were located on High Street (now St Kilda Road) St Kilda!

That was the situation until the 70s, when Chabad established a shop in Carlisle Street. That was followed by Solomons (who had previously sold poultry - under a different name - in Acland Street -supervised by the Melb BD) opening large modern premises in Glen Eira Road under the Mizrachi Kashrut. This shop eventually incorporated the Chabad butcher shop.

Some time later, Continental Butchers in Glenferrie Road which had been under the Melb BD (not a very popular Kashrut seal to most religious families) transfered to Mizrachi supervision. Allegedly this upset the owners of Solomons who promptly dropped the Mizrachi and asked the late Rabbi Groner z’’l to become their supervisor. By this time, Melbourne which used to have many Kosher butchers, was reduced to 3 – each under a different hashgacha. Pretty amazing in itself.

Meanwhile Mizrachi were growing in the Kashrut field and began producing their popular directory while at the same time promoting themselves as the Australia’s foremost authority (which they possibly are, though doubtful if the NSW KA agrees). To be more acceptable to the 'religious' community, as well as overseas Kashrut authorities with whom they liaise, they dropped the “Mizrachi” tag, as in many places this is seen as less than Mehadrin. They became “Melbourne Kosher” and at a later stage “Kosher Australia”. (I have heard speculation that when the name “Kosher Australia” was created, some were hoping to swallow Sydney as well… Of course that never eventuated. But I often wonder who was the Chelmer chacham who slipped up and so unoriginally replicated the NSW authority’s long-established “KA” label. 2 KA’s in our small Kosher consuming society! Definitely a bit strange. I was thinking, how it would be if the Adass Kashrut decided to call themselves “Kosher Adass” and also take on the “KA” initials… And then why not a “Kosher Adelaide” as well?)

Besides the Adass, Mizrachi had no real competitor. That is, until the arrival of Rabbi Mottel Gutnick from Sydney, who had for some time been in charge of that city’s Kashrut Authority gaining experience in the field. In addition to his position as rabbi in Doncaster, Rabbi Gutnick quickly established his own independent, or rather, private, label and was ‘in competition’ with Mizrachi. By that the time the Kashrut division of the Melbourne Beth Din (ie Rabbi M’s uncle, Rabbi Shulem Gutnick) was slowly expiring.

Some time later, Mizrachi, still hoping to become the undisputed authority in Melbourne, made Rabbi Mottel ‘an offer he couldn’t refuse’. (This was despite bad feelings by some – not least of all their rabbi at the time, Rabbi Baruch Zaichyk , who found it difficult to forgive Rabbi Gutnick for his hurried approval of Glick’s bakery after it was thrust aside by Mizrachi. However the Mizrachi leadership calculated that the long term benefit of being in charge of Melbourne’s Kashrut made it worthwhile to forget that affair. Thus Rabbi Gutnick was placed at the helm of Mizrachi’s operation and into the deal delivered his collection of establishments. There was also the matter of Rabbi Yanki Barber of South Caulfield who also had a couple of shops under him. Mizrachi took care of him similarly - offering him a position and thus removing another competitor. It was said at the time that to attract more “Haredim”, Mizrachi hired Kollel Beth Hatalmud’s Rabbi Nachman Sofer - adding his name to their growing and impressive rabbinical inventory.

Meanwhile Rabbi Chaim Gutnick, continued to supervise Ungar catering on behalf of Elwood Shul (which after his passing transferred to Kosher Australia). The late Rabbi Rudzki also approved a number of caterers. (Those seem to have been taken over by Rabbi Meir Rabi.)

Adass Kashrut has also been around for yonks. In the early years it was only butchers and poultry shops, chalav yisrael, oil and a limited number of products. This has over the past couple of decades expanded to caterers, food producers and shops, as well as the checking out of major companies eg Kellogs, Fosters etc on behalf of local consumers and overseas authorities. It is generally accepted by most, that the Adass standard is the highest in Australia and the important overseas Haredi Kashrut groups such as the Edah Haredit in Jerusalem and Kedassia in London work hand-in-hand with their rabbis.

In the past months we have seen Adass drop a number of establishments - for whatever reasons. These were immediately snapped up by Kosher Australia. Thus, unless one insists on Adass kashrut, those establishments are still there for us consumers. Another advantage of multiple Kashrut authorities.

This is all I have time for right now, but I hope to return and offer further facts and thoughts on the continuing evolution of Kashrut in Australia. Please note that the chronology may not be 100% accurate. I welcome comments and especially corrections.