Sunday, March 20, 2011

Mesirah - a plague in our midst

Klal Yisrael always viewed, not only actual mosrim, but even those who only threatened to inform on others to the police or authorities with loathing and revulsion. The most horrible epithet one throw at another was “Moser”. “Dobbers'’ were, throughout our history, considered to be the lowest of the low. Vermin. The Shulchan Aruch actually permits eradicating such a person - even on Yom Kippur adding: "vechol hakodem lehargoy - zacha" !!

To the best of our knowledge there is no such an allowance or ruling for any other major or minor infraction – not “bein adam laMakom” not “bein adam lechaveiro”.

It is therefore extremely painful to see this mesireh phenomenon become a 'normal' occurrence in our community, with the regular appearance of signed and unsigned letters and notices which explicitly and implicitly make threats of 'reporting' and ‘going to the authorities’ against organizations and the people who work tirelessly for them. Sadly, even in cases where the target is 100% in the clear – some of the mud sticks and time, money and effort that would be spent in building and improving is wasted in cleaning up the mess that has been created.

Do these contemptible and vile YBR parents who went running to the Age and the Jewish News realise that they have lost their “Chelek le’olam haba”? Was it really worth it? And what about the enormous Chilul Hashem they caused?

If these people have even a minuscule level of Yiras Shamayim, they must soon realise what a terrible state their neshamos are.

We at AJN Watch have no idea who the offenders are, but have no doubt (by the pattern of previous incidents) that these mosrim probably pay zero or minimal tuition fees for their children and have never lifted a finger to assist the schools in any way. A nasty collection of whingers, whiners, complainers, takers and users who should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

It is time that the RCV and individual rabbis came out strongly against this plague of mesireh which has affected a number of our communities. It is also obvious that many – especially BTs - have no idea of the gravity of this aveirah.

Rabbis should undertake to educate their congregants about these laws - before they too are affected by the actions of some unknowing member of their Shul. Outreach-Kiruv workers should be trained to impart these important Halachot to all who wish to become part of the community of Shomrei Torah uMitzvot. They should be clearly told: “Mesireh is assur – no less than pork”.

Wake up rabbis, before this snake bites you!

For those who wish to study these halachot – see Choshen Mishpat 388.
Meanwhile we reproduce a few of the main laws: (Click to enlarge)
From Friday's Age:
A JEWISH school in St Kilda East is being investigated following a complaint alleging the misuse of a $2 million grant under the federal school building stimulus program.

Yeshivah and Beth Rivkah Colleges received the $2 million grant under the program for a multi-purpose hall.

The complaint, obtained by The Age, alleged the grant was used by Chabad Youth - described on its website as a community-based organisation established to disseminate Judaism worldwide - for a building ''totally separate and distinct from the school''. It says Chabad Youth is not a school and therefore not entitled to receive any funding.

The complainant, who uses the pseudonym ''John Smith'' and is believed to be a parent at the school, also alleged the building's primary purpose was religious worship, in breach of the program's guidelines. ''It is imperative that the Australian government ensures that taxpayer funds are applied in accordance with the intention of the schemes … and that persons do not act in a fraudulent manner to obtain a benefit contrary to the provisions,'' he said in an email to the school building stimulus taskforce, which is investigating the complaint.

A federal Education Department spokesman confirmed the taskforce was investigating. ''The primary purpose of BER [Building the Education Revolution] facilities is educational,'' he said. ''BER guidelines outline that funding cannot be used for the building or refurbishment of any facility which has religious worship as its primary purpose.''

The general manager of Yeshivah-Beth Rivkah Colleges, Nechama Bendet, said Yeshivah College was confident that it had fully complied with all the guidelines and requirements of the grant.

But parents, who spoke to The Age on condition of anonymity, said they believed the building would be mainly used by Chabad Youth for Jewish social functions and worship on the Sabbath rather than the education of children at Yeshivah College. ''They took away our children's playground and put up a building which has nothing to do with our children's school,'' a mother tearfully told The Age.

In 2008, Chabad Youth was granted a planning permit by Glen Eira Council to build a three-storey education centre to be used in association with Yeshivah College.

Ms Bendet said the school gratefully received a $2 million grant to build a multipurpose hall the following year. ''To comply with the short time frames associated with the BER funding, existing permits were utilised by the school to build the hall,'' Ms Bendet said. She said an extra $3 million was raised by the community.

''The hall will be utilised by the school for assemblies, indoor sport, study areas, lectures, professional development, debating, large performances, parent-teacher meetings and staff meetings,'' Ms Bendet said. ''In accordance with BER guidelines, the hall will be made available to the local community after school hours and on weekends for after-school clubs and other recreational, cultural, sporting, and social activities.''


  1. Thanks Ajnwatch, This is probably one of the most important posts that you have published.

    Mesirah is indeed a terrible plague here in melbourne (and if I am not mistaken, also in Sydney).

    Something has to be done about this and possibly your advice is correct- EDUCATION. Yes, especially for baalei teshuvah who come from a background where if anything upsets them they'll report it - to police, to council inspectors, to some govt dept. They don't know any better - because they have not been taught.

    Personally, I knew that mesirah is assur - but had no idea how harshly teh halacha views offenders.

    So thank you for this important service and lets hope that your call gets through to those who can do something about it.

  2. The average Aussie does not dob in another person - even when he knows that the other has broken some law.

    These troublemakers could learn something from our sh'cheinim.

  3. Baalei Teshuvas are not the only mosrim.

    Unfortunately there are Frum From Birth people who also practise mesira and have no hesitation in calling police etc to try have another Jew arrested.

    This is a terrible scourge and all the communal leaders are petrified from these people who threatens them with blackmail and thus bullies them into submission.

    The punishment should be as the Shulchan Aruch states , misa

  4. I fear this article will be taken the wrong way by some - as if we should ignore dishonesty on the part of our fellow jews, heaven forbid. The halocho against mesirah IN NO WAY justifies fraudulant, illegal or unethical conduct. It DOES however govern how we should respond to such conduct.

    We live in what is (for the most part) a medinah shel chesed - and we should be very careful not to make enemies. I seriously fear what non-jews may think if they read this article!

    If you become aware that a fellow jew is ripping off the government or a business (such as tax, centrelink, insurance or medicare fraud), you SHOULD give the individual tochachah - and point out the terrifying punishment for such conduct (both the dishonesty and the chilul hashem). If the individual won't listen (or you feel incapable of giving rebuke), the matter should be passed on to a posek (halachic authority). However, you should NOT turn a blind eye. Nor should you take the initiative of informing on them without a psak authorizing you to do so. (There are circumstances, rare as they are, when informing on a fellow jew may be permitted. Ask your local orthodox rabbi).

    Mosrim endanger the community, but so do dishonest yidden. Both must be appropriately confronted.

    Under the czarist and communist eras, people may have had no choice but to steal from the government. However, nowadays such conduct is inexcusable. Painful as it is, pay your taxes - and be honest with government. Or it may cost you and your fellow jews dearly someday.

  5. Apologies if my previous comment was misinterpreted. Let me clarify that the guilt on innocence of Yeshivah and Beth Rivkah Colleges remains to be determined. They should be considered innocent of any wrongdoing until proven guilty. My remarks were intended merely to address the general issues surrounding the question of mesirah, not this specific case.

    The issue of "mud sticking" to those acquitted is one which plagues the world in general. If only there were easy answers...

  6. B'H

    Sometimes it is a personal vendetta against a person by people who think they could do the job 'better' so they seek to undermine and to destroy someone else's hard work. Instead of taking grievances to the right quarters they destroy the other person's reputation. It is called jealousy and is the basis of all mosrim's gripes.
    Most people do not indulge in this sort of thing by choice, we prefer all of us to rectify a situation through the appropriate means.

  7. Sometimes Mesirah is an obligation for example the Leifer tragedy - a victim

  8. While not wishing to underrate the negative impact of mesirah, the original, highly emotive, posting speaking of the ills of mesirah is based on Bava Kama 117a-b and Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 388:2...
    However, as was made clear in Aruch Hashulchan (388:7) the laws of Mesirah, as brought down in the above texts, assumed that the moser put the subject of his mesirah in mortal danger due to the absence of a fair legal system. However, bizman hazeh, in countries where there is a fair legal system, the laws of mesirah do not apply. This is also the view of Tzitz Eliezer (19:52) who quotes the Aruch Hashulchan, and gives Europe as an example of countries in which mesirah would no longer apply.
    In this way, mesirah stands out differently from archo'ois, which was based on casting Jews in a negative light publicly, and would apply even where there is a fair legal system. [Although this is a complex issue in itself]
    Having said that, even if the laws of mesirah do not apply, this does not mean that one is not transgressing the issur of malshin.
    The case for informing authorities has to be weighed up against issues to do with public endangerment (Sh.Ar. Ch.Mish.388:7), which would be a bit of a stretch of the imagination in this case, and whether the whole community could seem to be complicitous if someone or an organisation does something wrong that members of the Jewish community should have known, which MIGHT apply here.
    Whatever the case, the issur of mesirah, even before Aruch Hashulchan's clarification, should never have been a cover for an individual or an organisation doing something wrong, for the chachamim took a dim view of someone who does something wrong knowing that he was protected by the din of mesirah.
    Ve'osisoh hatoiv vehayoshor be'einei Hashem

  9. Do things legally and you won't have to worry about being mosered on

  10. I was sure this was a tongue in cheek Purim joke.

    The comment of Monday, March 21, 2011 8:06:00 AM is quite interesting, whether mesira applies today.

    However, I have been around long enough to know that people have been getting away with blue murder for decades under the protection of mesira. When is enough enough, and when do you call the police?

    How many kids have to get molested, or how much money can get ripped, or how much abuse of power do you have to endure before you can call the police.

    Google David Kramer for example and ask his subsequent victims whether the police should have been called at the risk of being called a moser but gutless uncaring self-centred excuses for humanity.

  11. In cases molestation the leading Rabbonim have ruled that abusers must be reported to the authorities.

    That is totally unlike the YBR situation which is rishus and clear 100% mesireh by anonymous individuals who are out to cause the Yeshiva as much damage as possible.

  12. Which leading Rabbonim have made this ruling? And then why does every single molester keep getting their air tickets paid for and told to leave and (sometimes?) continue their molesting?

    Without condoning what happened, your second paragraph shows you either don't know whats flying at Yeshivah or worse.

    You are getting stuck into the mosers, why not also talk about the morality of 'stealing' 3 the properties?

  13. R' S Z Auerbach z'l and lhbcl'c Rav Elyashiv and Rav Wosner shlita.

  14. Yeah, and then why do the molestors get free plane tickets out of the country from the Rabbonim of their respective kehillas with approval of various other respected Rabbis? Why not get stuck into them too?

    Because no-one wants to get 'involved' and they use the excuse of moser and take the easy way out. Just not the easy way for the next victime.

    And where is the outrage about A'Beckett St?

  15. I wonder if it's halachically possible to be moser an institution rather than an individual.

    In any event, I feel confident that the school will be vindicated: not only are Chabad Youth's activities effectively part of the school's activities, but my understanding is that the facilities will be used by the school during school hours. So the complainant really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

  16. Joe, the moser is 'dobbing in' the people running the institution.

    And whethere the are in the clear or not this moser deserves everything tat the halacha states about him.

    I am amazed how most writers seem to dismiss the punishment of ein lo chelek leolom habo.

  17. I don't know much about the Kramer case but have received a fair bit of info about Leifer.

    The school kept a track of her (and still does). They notify the authorities wherever she lives about her record.

    As to why they let her go. Because there wasn't any victims or parents who were prepared to put themselves through the trauma and public 'shame' of police investigations and a court case.

    Therefore getting rid of her was the best option at the time.

  18. Unfortunately mesireh has become quite acceptable amongst Chabadniks (not all chalila). It happens often in CH and otehr centers.

    Probably introduced by the many BTs who were never informed that it is a serious averah

  19. I will say that in dealing with a child molester, the primary urgency in my mind isn't getting them prosecuted and jailed per se as much as making sure that the abuse is stopped *immediately*, victims are kept safe from further abuse, and the abuser doesn't get to add to their list of victims - either in that community or elsewhere. Prosecuting them comes a clear second. In this respect, chasing people out of the community isn't always productive. It may be better for them to stay in a community where everyone knows what they've done (and will be vigilant) than to run them out of town and have them continue their crimes elsewhere. In the Leifer case though, there were particular issues around her attempts to bully and intimidate her victims into silence when the allegations were raised. Hence the need to force her to get lost, fast. It took some forcing, mind you (from what I gather). And yes, they do make sure she doesn't get close to teenagers again. Last I heard, she lived in Emmanuel, a total outcast, never leaving her home. Everyone there knows of the matter.

  20. There you go, blaming 'the BT's'! This ignorant attitude stinks and displays the narrow mindedness of some of you and reeks of shamefully hateful prejudice and unfounded bias towards 'the BT's' as if they are somehow less Jewish or less frum. You people who write this are the ones who need to do a bit of teshuva yourselves.

  21. . "In the Leifer case though, there were particular issues around her attempts to bully and intimidate her victims into silence when the allegations were raised. Hence the need to force her to get lost, fast."

    sounds like excuses for a cover up and for protecting the perpetrator

  22. Uncommon Sense - there is no need to be so sensitive and touchy. The comment in fact was a limud zechus for BTs, ie, that they hadn't previously heard of an issur of mesireh and they weren't told about it - even after they became fully fledged Torah Jews.

    I have no idea if you yourself are a BT, but if yes, can you tell me when you first heard of the gravity of being a moser?

  23. There was protection, "Really".

    Simply acceptance of the facts that no one was willing to press charges (especially seeing that the victims were actually young adults - and not children)

    Getting rid of her was by far the best (and only) option.

  24. Getting rid of her was the worst option. They did the WRONG thing and all the experts in this field would say this is so! They should have had her arrested. How would she have been able to bully her victims into being quiet from jail? She couldn't have. Some victims would have come forward eventually if Adass knew what they were doing, they would have called in counselors who would help the victims testify. Don't give me this balony that she is being watched in Israel. No one has any idea what she is up to now, she could very well be molesting other innocents. She belongs in jail. Ridiculous excuses for a despicable cover up because Adass did not how to deal with the situation and chose to go into denial hooping it would just go away. Their response to this situation made the psychological damage on the victims much worse than it would have been if the community had shown stood with the victims and stood for justice. Adass seriously needs to get an education about molestation and how the after affects. If they did they would understand they did the worst possible thing according to all the experts!

  25. Huh you obviously have no idea what happened.
    1) The victims were bot underage kids - they were classified as adults.
    2) There was NO WAY that they were going to add to their trauma by participating in any investigation.
    3) Thus there was no acceptable reason for her to be arrested.
    4) Adass knew very well what they were doing,but still also took advice from Rabbis Telsner and Wurzbuerger as well as from professionals in the field.
    5) Actually she is being watched in Israel and her name has been listed with relevant authorities.

  26. The only way that whoever spoke to the paper is "dobbing in' the people running the institution" would be if the administrators were personally liable for some criminal punishment. This is almost certainly not the case. On further thought I don't think that it would be mesirah even if the "dobber" was reporting an individual: surely mesirah is about making an allegation that exposes someone to punishment, not a case when someone has allegedly retained money they're not entitled to but will be free from penalty if they pay it back. I think it's quite enough to say that the complaint (and perhaps the complainant) is a nasty piece of work.

    Incidentally, I'm very uncomfortable with this suggestion that mesirah is typically associated with BTs. It's factually false and probably malshinus.

  27. 1) they were NOT adults, that is totally false as I know some of the families
    2)You have no idea what you are talking about. There are professionals who know how to get victims to testify. That is their expertise. It would not add to their trauma, all the experts will say it cleanses them of their pain and helps the healing process.
    3)No reason for her to be arrested? Are you still shiker from Purim?
    4) Rabbis Telsner and Wurzberger have no expertise in this field. I do not believe Adass took advice from the best professional psychologists at all(maybe some local average counselors closely connected to Adass who could not be objective but not any real high up experts) in fact it is very obvious they did not. Some parents did but not the ones in charge of the situation.
    5) She is being watched in Israel? Her name is registered? That is enough for you? I see you take the protection of children from known child molesters very casually!
    Mostly everyone knows this is a big black mark on Adass that they need to admit so it is not repeated.

  28. Believe me, there are PLENTY of crooks who bully and terrorize their victims from jail! Why do you think we need a witness protection program? And anyways, it's too easy to get bail. Believe me, there are some big and powerful bullies in this world! (And yes, she is one of them).
    I'm not saying the way things were handled was perfect. But I can tell you that pursuing a conviction would be near hopeless. Many victims (if not all) weren't underage - which means no crime has been committed, however evil the abuse. And even if they were, the last thing they would want is the publicity an investigation would have caused. Do remember that just being predatory and exploitative is not in itself a crime.
    Yes, perhaps there was too much fear of a "chilul hashem". I don't endorse this fear, but it's a reality. If only the yidden who commit the crimes would have the same fear...
    Also, the horrible reality is that any girl identified as a victim would likely face serious shidduch problems (and possibly her siblings too). A horrible reality, I stress, but true. "Really? Huh" if you have any children of marriageable age, you'd be doing society a great favour if you encouraged them not to reject an abuse victim for a shidduch.
    Call Mrs Leifer in Israel, if you like, and hear how ADAMANTLY and forcefully she professes her innocence. I'm telling you, if people didn't know what they knew, everyone would have believed her! It's frightening! People like to believe in the goodness of others. (And the same issue would likely arise in court). The idea of a brazen bald-faced liar is one many decent people have a hard time getting their heads around!

  29. To Anonymous , This pedophile was powerful enough to bully anyone from jail and to say so is ridiculous. You think that chilul Hashem is more important than protecting innocent children from molestation? The reputation of Adass was all you cared about. This just shows what I am pointing out and that is that Adass was less concerned about the actual well being of the children and more concerned about other issues like their reputations and protecting a pedophile. The reputation of the girls for shidduchim is more important to you than their mental health. Instead of helping them to purge their trauma you suppressed everything making them feel like they should be ashamed as if they did something wrong. Instead of the community showing these innocent victims that the community will not aid pedophilia you showed them that you will protect those who did this heinous crime against them. How do you think that makes them feel? A bit angry? Confused? And then younwant to marry them off to some unsuppecting bachur without them knowing about or dealing with their psychological issues from being abused. You think this will make for a healthy happy marriage partner? This may have condemned them to a miserable life. How do you think these girls will fare in marriage after not only being traumatised by this pedophile, by by being doubly traumatised with the community being complicit with and protecting the pedophile and covering up for this pedophile? Your solution then is to cover it up, stay shtum, and ship off the pedophile where she can do it again. Your priorities are perverted!
    And to Eva, If I tell you if I were a BT or not and if I answer your question as to when I first learned about mesirah, what doe that prove? Does it mean that all BT's around the entire world are the same? Would it show you that since one single BT has a certain education or perception that all BT's do? If you think that my answer would be sufficient to prove your point about all BT's then you are proving my point that you are ignorant, prejudice, and stereotyping all BT's as the same.

  30. Please everybody, the article posted here by ajnwatch had NOTHING to do with molestation.
    It was criticising malcontents - who pay nothing towards their kids education and repay this generousity by massering the school to the media and authorities.

    These disgusting ingrates should be condemned by all of us.

  31. To grateful parent - If we all can work out what to do with the 'simple case' of molestors and whether we should be moser on them, then we can progress onto the more difficult cases of gneivah and other immoral deeds.

  32. If we don't know who the mosrim are, then how can you say they don't pay tuition? It's either the dumb BT's or the moochers, huh? How do you know it wasn't a goyisha neighbor? Or a frum from birther? Yeshiva is always following halacha to the letter, huh? Only BT's and 'malcontent's'who are moochers break halacha? What a bunch of stupid nastiness!

  33. And BT's are all ingrates who really have to be taught how to behave & show undying gratitude & devotion for having been shown the light!
    Let your kids get abused , let the moisad cheat & steal just behave yourself because without us you would still be in the dark!!!
    Really all you BT's out there, learn your place & listen to big Brother!
    What is this communism?

  34. Uncommon sense, whoa. There's no reason to attack me personally - I wasn't involved.
    I totally agree that "chilul hashem" is NO excuse WHATSOEVER for concealing or tolerating abuse. As I said, the real villains here are the jewish criminals themselves (like her) not those who reveal their evil deeds.
    If the victims in the matter wish to go to the police, the community should definitely support them in doing so. Even so, would they want to???
    "Really? Huh", if you know some of the victims, ask them: would they like to go to the police? You *assume* they are upset about how things were handled. They may be, or they may well not be. (I have no idea. As I said, I wasn't involved).
    If they want her to come back and face charges, she may well be willing to do just that. But you might just find that she'll fight tooth and nail and put her victims through a fresh round of hell in the courtroom.
    The main counselor Adass used was Vicki Gordon, and YES, she is PLENTY experienced!
    Last I heard, she's in Emmanuel, Israel - and EVERYONE in the community there is aware of the matter!
    As to shidduchim, I agree - one MUST be honest with a prospective spouse, or the marriage is unlikely to last. Unfortunately, it will be very hard to encourage people to do so until parents curb their prejudice against individuals with "difficulties" - Be they physical health, mental health, emotional issues, or disabilities. This is a battle that NEEDS to be fought, but it will be hard.
    (It's fair to give fair consideration to such issues and how they will affect the capacity for a happy marriage with the individual in question - what's NOT fair is to dismiss such proposals flat out due to prejudice).
    And don't get me started on parents who reject shidduchim with girls from poor families - "so that out son can study in kollel (on his in-laws' cheshbon)". They will answer big-time in shamayim. Excuse the rant.

  35. From a discussion about AJN watch on

    The last entry on the blog yesterday condemns non-fee paying parents as ingrates responsible for the mesira. if you read Mr Wax's email, it seems quite clear that the person who is primarily responsible is the neighbour whose email Is attached to Mr Wax's is not a parent at the school, not a BT & indeed not Jewish. The blogger is merely exposing their bitter hateful prejudice which is also against Halacha.
    the blogger also ignores the inconvenient fact that grateful parents, fee paying or not, have a right to criticize how the school operates, particularly as each precious child they chose to enrol at the school attracts considerable government subsidies.
    In fact the government doesn't have resources to audit each school that receives subsidies & expects that parents will play their part by showing an interest in how the school operates.

    BTW, these days most parents pay discounted fees ("a special price just for you") & I think you will find that most zero fee payers are in that position because of their relationship to the 'ruling elite

  36. Repenting jewess, huh?

    I rest my case .

  37. Old news

  38. Old news
    Tuesday, June 09, 2009
    Chabad Youth & A'Beckett Street

  39. This blog is such Ahavas Yisroel it's nauseating. Why not link it to every Chabad house website so any prospective BT's know what you all really think. Oh & let's send to all the billionaires who support chabad too. Next kinus would be a good place to start.
    If we BT's were put here just so that you arrogant FFB's stop lying, cheating & nepotism - Dayenu!

  40. There is hand full of mesirahim in the shul it's time you throw them out of the Yeshivah Rabbi Telsner
    everybody knows who they are

  41. How can you throw anyone out of shule? It would have to be proven that they are the mosrim and that would need a DinTorah. And if they have alot of money no one will touch them.

  42. Then they too can go dance on the corner :).
    What a great way to deal with issues, see no evil , hear no evil.

  43. Posted this on Repenting Jewess blog:

    Tom said...
    Come on you guys. Ajnwatch is a great blog which not only keeps an eye on the Jewish News (who seemed to have vastly improved the way they write about frum Jews in the past year or so), but posts many interesting items of interest, including humor and some excellent pix.

    And of course, unlik ethis blog, it allows criticism of itself in its comments section.

    CC Ajnwatch

  44. Tom I fully agree with you. I think SS would be thrilled if her blogette created evn half the interest that this one does.

  45. Having become BTs a couple of decades ago, maybe we are less sensitive than those who are of a more recent production.

    We have discussed this topic of 'mesirah' in the community a number of times and my wife and I agree that it is true that BTs are not warned on what a great averah this is. And understandably so - as which Kiruv rabbi or teacher would even dream that such an issue will ever arise and that a newly-minted frum Jew would want to act this way.

    But living in a community of many BTs, we do find that 'informing' or at least threats thereof are far more prevalent amongst BTs than FFBs.

    On the other hand, it seems to us that once they are told that such behaviousr is assur, BTs will accept this. Not so with a determined FFB who has mesirah tendencies

  46. L and J, how can you extrapolate your own personal experience to an entire group you call 'BT's'? That is called projection. Your experience is just that, it's yours. You have no way of knowing that most other BT's, as you say, are more sensitive because they are newer than you, and you have no way of knowing, as you say, that most BT's are not taught about mesirah in their early stages just because that was your experience. How would you know that BT's inform more than FFB's when the reality is that informers' identities stay secret? You have no way of knowing any of these things yet you state them with the certainty of facts. How could you know any of this without conducting a scientific survey? Why do you spread your ignorant prejudice statements with nothing to back them up? I surmise your post is fake and you are not even BT's at all.


    This was Mesirah

  48. Uncommon Sense said...
    L and J, how can you extrapolate your own personal experience to an entire group you call 'BT's'? That is called projection. Your experience is just that, it's yours.
    Simple. For the past 25 years or so we have been on pretty close terms with dozens - if not more - BT families.

    And too often when they feel aggrieved about someone or something their initial reaction is "I am going to report this".

    When told that this may be considered mesireh, they are genuinely shocked to hear of such an issur.

    So why not do your own survey. Ask the next 10 BTs you meet - both new and old - if they know what mesirah is?

    We'll be pleased to hear the results.

    Now that there are almost 50 comments regarding this post here on ajnwatch - and presuming that only 1 in 10 readers take the time to comment - you may find another few hundred people who know about this serious matter.

    So despite all the criticism, ajnwatch HAS achieved something positive.

  49. L and J, you have a weird way of deciding how to know what most BT's think. Ask 10 BT's and that will tell me that all BT's think the same as these ten BT's? That is plain silliness!
    It is equally silly for you to say one out of ten people make comments on this blog. How do you know this is correct? Maybe it is one out of a hundred, or one out of two? You seem to enjoy making up stats and then stating your made up stats as facts. Ridiculous and foolish way of arguing any point.

  50. Please, Really, Just humour us all and do that survey.

    Ask 10 BTs what they know (if anything) about the sin of mesireh.

  51. S Silcove in her blog

    seems to prove the point of ajnwatch's post.

    Oh, and BTW, she really doesn't like ajnwatch!

  52. No Henry,she actually disproves the point of the author of the article on this blog because she states more than once that she is against mesirah. And if you think her blog is mesirah, then so is AJN watch cause they are both discussing the sscandals in the news.

  53. Shoshanna Silcove
    Doesn't hide behind annoymous blogs

  54. SS has removed her post. Obviously she too realised that while she stated she was against mesireh, she seemed far more upset at the moser's targets.

  55. henry,you don't know what she realised or why the posts are gone and are just talking loshon hora yourself, you hypocrite.

  56. Really? Huh - I think I've worked out who you are and yes you would definitely know better than me why that post of SS has been rewritten.

    Though now checking the SS blog I see she has removed also the rewritten post as well as the one claiming that ajnwatch was 'tripe' or something of that nature.

    God to see Ms Silcove seeing the light.

    And BTW I have no idea loshon hora I had written. Please elaborate

  57. [Slightly edited comment - for legal and LH reasons - AJNWatch]

    haha, oh please. XX ALWAYS posts under numerous pseudonyms and even comment on .. own blog to make it look like people are actually reading it and saying things like "Oh XX you are so right and thank goodness you are here to spread emes!" absolutely hilarious. I understand that xx removed posts from .. blog because lawyers of those .. spoke loshen hora about contacted .. and asked .. to remove those remarks anyone .. disagrees with is called "hateful". (lucky for you AJNwatch you were one of them! hehe, it means .. finds you threatening.. so be flattered!) well done AJNwatch on a wonderful blog which we all love reading! p.s. my two cents/if it is worth that... That mesirah does NOT include reporting a serious concern to Jewish organisation with the intention of helping to correct the problem, but DOES include reporting it to the media with the intention of creating sensationalism, puff and general chilul hashem for the Jewish community.

  58. AJN Watch is so funny and weird. This must be some Adaas shlub cuz the grammar is from 3rd grade. The AJN Watch shlub obviously thinks Adaas is the frummest and best with that despicable way of looking down on everyone else that Adaas is famous for. Adaas AJN watch shlub thinks he knows how to tell kiruv workers how to train BT's! He's not pained by mesira he is terrified of it for good reason

  59. Ah, yes, there she goes again...someone with a mighty chip on their shoulder.

    yeshiva - corrupt. adass despicable

    is ANYONE alright for you?
    (and for someone who makes fun of 3rd grade grammar, you spelled Adass wrongly - 4 times!
    Didn't they ever send you any printed materials with the correct spelling?)

  60. at least we now know the identities of some of the comments writers here.

  61. No country should tolerate religious freaks who use taxpayer dollars to further propagate freaky religious ideas! Let the malignant memeplexes of religion die out as soon as possible. The world will be a safer place, especially for women and children.

  62. "No country should tolerate religious freaks who use taxpayer dollars to further propagate freaky religious ideas!"

    And how would you define "freaks"? The Chabad Lubavitch movement is no young trendsetting upstart - it predates the emergence of many of the modern-day Christian groups and its philosophy is one of benevolence - promoting Jewish identity and accord between Jews. It is not a cult in that it does not seek to separate family members, not does it require a slavish service of the leadership. How then is it freakish?

    Perhaps its ideology does not accord with your own Mr Anonymous, in which case it is no doubt far from alone in being slandered by you in this manner.


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