?המה מי מריבה
Yeshiva Yechi sign (# 2)
(Can anyone supply us with pictures of the Yechi signs versions 1 and 3?)
Since we posted the following petition (in the comments section of a previous post), we have had a large number of responses. However as the majority were either disrespectful (towards both sides of the debate) or plain boring and repetitive, we did not publish them. Now that Rabbi Telsner has responded to that petition, we feel that the story deserves its own blogpost.
Dear All,
This is directed at members of Anash and people who daven (or used to daven) at Yeshivah Shule. Our apologies if you have received this email and do not consider that the issues raised impact upon you in any way.
As you may be aware, we are running a petition directed to Rabbi Telsner and the Yeshivah Executive calling for the removal of the Yechi sign affixed to the back of Yeshivah Shule. We are aware that given the track record of the Executive, it is unlikely that they will respond to this petition, yet we believe it is important that they get a feel of the level of opinion that exists concerning the ongoing presence of the sign in the shule.
By this initiative, we certainly do not seek to persuade anybody as to how they should feel about the philosophy which stands behind the Yechi sign or, chas vashalom, provoke disharmony.
We believe that the sign is divisive and our aim is to restore Achdus to our Chabad community and, potentially, restore some pride and dignity to Yeshivah Shule and Chabad in Melbourne. Recent developments (the Asarah B’taives incident and response) have brought this issue back into focus.
From the outset, we have respectfully informed Rabbi Telsner and the Executive that we are running this petition and that we would like an opportunity to present the results to them. We have asked them to recognise that currently there is no other way for people to voice their opinion on this issue or generally.
Accordingly, we attach to this email a copy of a blank petition form for you to print off and sign (include name).
Upon signing you can either scan and email to one of the addresses below, or contact us via email and we will arrange to collect.
We can be contacted via email on yudhum@tpg.com.au or menachemv@axisc.com.au
We recognise that this is an emotive issue and people have strong opinions each way. Please do not feel under any pressure to sign our petition or join the group. Once again, our aim is to restore unity.
Please feel free to pass this on to others to whom it may be relevant.
Once again, apologies to anyone who may be offended by receiving this message.
Regards
Yudi New and Menachem Vorchheimer
Tuesday February 9, 2010
25 Shevat 5770
בס'ד כ"ה שבט ה' אלפים תש"ע
The Yechi Sign that is displayed in the back of Yeshivah Shule has been in place for more than 18 years. The late Rabbi Y. D. Groner OBM gave this matter very serious consideration, taking into account the diversity of the shule membership and all associated issues, and issued a Psak that the sign should remain in the Shule. I see no reason to change the status quo and am upholding Rabbi Groner’s Psak in relation to this matter.
The Rebbe often emphasised that the way to bring Moshiach is through Ahavas Chinum (unconditional love) and we hope that our Shule community will unite and grow through mutual respect and Ahavas Chinum and we will hasten the coming of Moschiach.
May Hashem answer all our Teffillos for Brocho and Hatzlocho, and peace in Eretz Yisroel and the imminent arrival of Moshiach.
Wishing you a freilechin Purim.
Rabbi Z H Telsner
I undersdtand teh dilemma that Rabbi telsner finds himself in. He may very well wish to get rid of that sign, but feels that this could in some way be a 'patch' to his late shverr.
ReplyDeleteI am glad that the decision is not up to me!
Dear Rabbi Telsner,
ReplyDeleteRegarding the letter Rabbi Telsner wrote below: why is this a 'psak'? If this is a halachik decision then painting the wall blue or green is also.
Also, 18 years ago when the sign was put up the Rebbe was still with us here in a body and the sign had a completely different connotation then as it does now. Don't you think that the Rebbe being nistalik (passed on) changes things? If not, then you are not thinking clearly or rationally.
And what does ahavas chinum have to do with it? Does having it mean we cannot disagree with the sign? What about having ahavas chinum for all the people who feel put-off by the sign? Don't our feelings count?
And finally-saying Yechi is a Chassidishe heirgish (feeling), not a halacha. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves where they stand on this. Therefore, it is not correct nor proper to turn it into shule policy. Yechi should be kept out of the shule and no be imposed on those who do not share this heirgish. Imposing Yechi on others is a sort of religious tyranny.
Respectfully,
Shoshanna Silcove
http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=24262#c
ReplyDeleteJust look at the link from new york
I looked up that link but it was difficult to get to the Yechi article. I eventually found it by doing a seacrh on "Telsner".
ReplyDeleteShosh's comments make a lot of sense. The only limud zechus I have in explaining the rabbi's stand is that despite the passing of the rebbe, rebbe Groner allowed (and maybe even demanded) that the sign remain there.
ReplyDeleteHowever I am sure that rabbi groner being a peaceloving person would have considered its removal for the sake of shalom in the community. He too had ahavas chinum
Yankel Koncepolski's opinion on this and on Yossel's demands for removal
ReplyDeletehttp://chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=17358
http://www.chabad.info/index.php?url=article_en&id=17354
ReplyDeletegood article
Chabad.info is the no.1 messianist website. I wouldn't waste my time there. It is a disgrace to mainstream / authentic / non-messianist chabad, as is the yechi sign in the yeshivah shul.
ReplyDeleteI just saw the following post on facebook in response to the Chabad.info article. I have edited it slightly to make it more respectful and taken out names that may be considered loshon hora. While I have no idea who wrote it, it seems factual and informative. I have pasted it below:
ReplyDeleteThere are many factual errors in the Chabad.info article. Here are the REAL facts:
1) The first Yechi sign was NOT painted by the late Simcha Fetter. It was painted by a 17 year old Y.G. Bochur (who incidentally today is not frum) who was trying to be chutzpadik against the rosh yeshivah who was against yechi. I was there when he made the sign (in the Y.G. lunchroom) and I helped put it up for the hook-up.
2) The sign was torn down in anger by a certain well known member of anash. This upset Rabbi Groner, who felt it was a chutzpah for this individual to blatantly disrespect the sign by tearing it down and crunching it up. (i.e., even though he did not authorize the sign to go up in the first place, the manner in which it was taken down upset him.) The person who tore it down put it into the green dumpster in the yeshivah yard. It was subsequently found and Rabbi Groner said it should be put back up.
3) Of course, being a bit creased and disheveled, it no longer looked so nice and so a new plastic banner was made which hung for many years until its mysterious disappearance a few years ago. The current sign is the 3rd sign, as reported in the article.
5) As a member of anash in Melbourne and a member of yeshivah shul, I firmly believe that most are against and even upset by the sign. Many (including myself) did not sign the petition out of respect for Rabbi Groner or fear of "mixing into politics and machlokes". (Someone told me that the petition was brought to at least 10 prominent Chabad rabbis in Melbourne, ALL who were against the sign but NOT ONE signed the petition for fear of "mixing into politics"). When once in a while someone says yechi in the kollel minyan only a handful of people respond (maybe 3 or 4) out of 50 or so daavening there. I have watched closely time and time again, VERY few people say it. It really makes no sense to have the sign up and anyone who thinks it does not turn people away from Chabad and Chassidus is either in denial or VERY insulated.
Someone just called me that Emmmanuel has written a thoughtful piece on this affair. an someone post it here please?
ReplyDeleteHere is Emmanuel's email
ReplyDeleteFrom: anash-owner@stop-press.com.au On Behalf Of Emmanuel
Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 2010 9:19 PM
To: anash@stop-press.com.au
Subject: [SAL] From my Perspecive - An unheeded warning
FROM MY PERSPECTIVE
REAL FOOD FOR THOUGHT - PLUS A SMALL HISTORY LESSON
Ah, honest, integrity, consistency…..nice words, sometimes meaningful, and unfortunately, often not.
That was a lovely letter written by the Dayan, but then there was never a doubt, was there? Only a fool would believe a change would occur.
At least we should be thankful, the wording was crafted much more carefully than those expressed on Saturday night. But a few shots across the bow made sure those words were not repeated….showed a serious lack of street-sense, and was insulting.
But let’s get back to what this editorial is all about.
Let’s start with a little truth, and to do that I roll the clock back to 1981/82.
Some of you may recall, there was a most venerable man in our community, by the name of Reb Betzalel Wilshansky o’bm. Apart from Reb Moshe Feiglin a’h, the pioneer Lubavitcher chossid, Reb B’tzalel was most likely the catalyst of how/why the other 5 Chabad families came to Australia . In short, Reb Btzalel was a Shochet in Russia with whom Reb Moshe had communicated prior to WW2 to migrate to Australia to be the local Shochet in Shepparton. It was hoped that the community would thrive and greater things would evolve.
Unfortunately WW2 put paid to that hope at the time however after the mass escape from Russia in 1946 and during the subsequent sojourn in Paris , communication was re-established between Reb Moshe & Reb Betzalel.
Reb Betzalel was given blessings and obtained consent from the Rebbe Rayatz z’tl. Preparations were made for Reb Btazlel and his family to migrate to Australia .
However, Reb Btzalels letter from the Rayatz was intercepted by another Lubavitcher who then too became desirous to migrate to Australia . Together with other Lubavitcher Chassidim, consent and blessing were obtained from the Rebbe Rayatz z’tl . In 1949 those 5 families subsequently migrated to Australia . The rest is well known history on which I do not have to elaborate.
Let’s now move on to 1981/82.
Chaim Ber Wilshanky, son of Reb Btzalel a’h (passed away 1977) wished to honour his fathers memory. He approached the Shul Committee regarding making a financial donation, plus the installation 2 boards on the front wall of the Shul.
One for Moidim D’rabbonon, the other, Brich Shmei.
The idea was that these board as in other shuls all over the world, would be able to be read from a distance for the benefit of the mispallelim. The idea appealed to the Committee for several reasons, one being as an engraving had been made above the Oron Kodesh (in honour of the Kedoishim murdered during the Holocaust who were related to an extremely “choshever and admired”member of the Melb Jewish Community (Mizrachi), albeit not a mispallel of the Yeshivah but a great friend and patron none the less for all the years that Chabad was in Melbourne) the so called unspoken taboo to inscribe/install plaques etc, therefore was no longer applicable. CONT.
EMMANUEL 2 [CONT]
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, the reasoning was, that as Moidim D’Rabbonon is recited at least 15 times per week and Brich Shmei at least 4 times per week, and that those prayers are an integral part of every Nusach, Ashkenaz or Sefarad, Chassidish or Litvish, in other words right across the entire spectrum of Orthodox Judaism, nothing could be more Pareve and acceptable than those two prayers.
The Committee endorsed the offer, but was told quite forcefully and categorically by Rabbi Groner a’h that Chabad does not accept nor allow signs, even prayers to be put up in a Shul. There was bitter disappointment at that response, as not only was money was in short supply, but it was felt that the Teffilos were a most appropriate way to honour Reb Btzalel. He was an amazing personality whose farbrengens were unrivalled and unparalleled, whose stories of the Rabbeyim and old time Chassidim were relayed in such a way that if one closed their eyes, they could feel as if they were being transported in time, effectively becoming a time traveler, and witnessing first hand what was happening. Even I used to attend his farbrengens which was delivered in a soft voice where one strained to be as close as possible, that even a pin dropping to the floor could be heard. He simply enthralled us, time and time again that 2,3, 4 hours felt like 15-20 minutes. Virtually, time stood still.
He was one of a kind, which my generation could relate to, but unfortunately many of you will most likely never be fortunate enough to experience. My intent is not to detract from the other Lubavitchers, how they too used to farbreng, as for now the focus is on Reb Btzalel a’h.
Chaim Ber tried to rationalize with Rabbi Groner but to no avail. He claims even to this day (I called him last week to confirm) that he was told by Rabbi Groner that if the Moidim and Brich Shmei were installed, Rabbi Groner would not set foot in the shul.
Chaim Ber left and did not return.
And here is my dilemma.
Had there been a Werdiger Hall at the time of the initial hookup with the Rebbe z’tl, the Yechi sign would have been put up there, possibly it would have stayed, maybe not depending on the function being held, but as there was no hall, the hookup was at the Yeshivah and the Yechi sign went up.
It was removed a few days later in an undesirable way, but was re-installed. There was contention from day one, maybe not as bad or as numerous as today, but mispallelim were unsettled and some registered their disapproval by leaving. Without a doubt, the Melbourne Jewish community pricked up their eyebrows.
However, I was a little ambivalent about it at the time, but couldn’t get the Reb Btzalel issue out of my mind.
I asked Rabbi Groner why was Moidim and Brich Shmei, universally accepted prayers by all Jews irrespective of their background….is Treif, yet the Yechi sign which was (and still is, all over the world) controversial….is Kosher?
Additionally, he had ruled that Chabad was against signs and prayers being erected in their shuls!
Rabbi Groner didn’t answer. He looked at me for several minutes, uncomfortably, and said nothing. I asked him once more if he had an answer. CONT.
EMMANUEL 3 (CONT)
ReplyDeleteI then said to Rabbi Groner the following…..”if you invented that psak regarding the luchos, that is, no signs, period, then why can’t you admit it? If on the other hand the1982 psak had basis, are you now implying that a controversial sign is holier than the Moidim and Brich Shmei and therefore the psak no longer applies? Is this another “twist & turn” episode? (I meant Nishtana Itim)
No response….
You ever played the game of Snooker, hear the term snookered?
That was the expression I saw and from that moment on, I formed the view that something was not right. It didn’t make sense, and no explanation was given.
Over the years, from time to time during our many one-on-one chats the topic came up, but till this day there was no answer provided. I believe Rabbi Groner was incapable of telling me that he thought the Yechi sign was holier than the Tefillos I mentioned above, yet could not bring himself to admit that possibly he had made an initial error in judgment and that now he was between a rock and a hard place.
I have been told by reliable sources that on occasions he had complained he was being hounded by the younger hard core set, that they were tearing strips off him, that they were insinuating he was not a Chossid of the Rebbe, that if he were to take off the Yechi he would be answerable to the Rebbe in the hereafter. I believed then as I do now, that Rabbi Groner was psychologically pistol-whipped into submission. They simply wore him down.
Additionally as the sign was removed without authority, it was a blow to his integrity. He required that it be replaced to demonstrate his authority was absolute. (It’s a shame he didn’t exert the same decisiveness when other of his rulings were totally ignored)
I don’t believe he was really into the Yechi for the following reasons.
It is well known that Rabbi Groner was not an Igros Person. Pity! The Igros could have advised him, one way or the other.
But what I do know is that he was dead-set against the ritual shouting of the Yechi and made many impassioned speeches pleading with people to stop. In fact he quite angrily insisted on one occasion that he would make the Yechi statement at his time of choosing and at his choice of location.
On the two occasions that he did make mention of the Yechi , he simply said in a rather subdued voice and not in his usual booming style…just two words…"Yechi Hamelech".
That’s it…just two words…Yechi Hamelech and not the entire slogan.
And on only two occasions, very close to each other!! Hardly an enthusiastic rendition by any standards.
But individuals simply did not respect his requests, they still called out, resulting in commotion, time and time again
Events were spiraling out of control to the point where things started to become physical. CONT.
EMMANUEL 4 (CONT.)
ReplyDeleteI recall some months prior to Rabbi Groner’s passing, Sholom Mendel Kluwgant and I, wheeled him into the Kollel and again, he made an impassioned plea for the screaming and ruckus dancinging to stop. He was most unwell, but once again his pleas fell on deaf ears. The hard core did as they pleased, all in the name of heaven. You may not believe it, but at that point in time the Hotham St Shamta Loonies were carrying on like madmen in the kollel, but they still had their supporters during an ensuing argument minutes after Rabbi Groner was wheeled away and barely out of earshot.
So, has Yechi sign has been a rallying-point, the glue which holds our community together?
Hardly!
Has it attracted even one person to Chabad, who came just because of the Yechi?
Show me even one person who has become a member of Chabad exclusively because of the slogan and I’ll show 100 who have been turned off.
Incredibly, for those who argue that a rabbi has the final say about a hergesh, a sentiment, and that a ruling on a sentiment has to be adhered to as if it were Toiras Moshe Mi’sinai, then assuming the Yechi sign was the right thing to do, why doesn’t Chaim Tzvi Groner install a Yechi sign in Ohel Devorah?
He’s the Rov there……no?
His father was a so called great believer in the Yechi (being satirical), so wouldn’t one think CTG should follow suit seeing he was a keynote speaker at the recent Moshiach fest in Israel ?
Why worry about what his oilom think… …..after all, his mispallelim are Jews who understand the concept that a rabbi’s ruling is final. Let him install the Yechi sign there are well…let’s have some consistency, after all Rabbi Groner was the head Shliach and Ohel Devorah was under his Shlichus.
Shouldn’t his example be followed? What. the Yeshivah has a monopoly? CONT.
EMMANUEL 5 (CONT.)
ReplyDeleteAnd why not Chabad of Malvern? Shimshon who together with Chaim Tzvi is on the Vaa’d Ruchni at the Yeshivah, making spiritual decisions for our Kehilla , shouldn't he too install a Yechi sign at his Shul? (with the English translation)? It is after all a Chabad Shul.
And what about Mendi Groner? Him too!
Ah, but they have a little problem….
It’s called B’oifen Hamiskabel…..two little words the Rebbe was quite concerned about.
Applies everywhere except the Yeshivah?
Now isn’t that a little hypocritical?
All over the world the Yechi is causing great divisions within Chabad and in the process the Jewish world think we are off the planet.
Some foolhardy people try to equate it with the Litvaks versus the Alter Rebbe, but that analogy is simply preposterous. The Alter Rebbe was introducing Torah, where now we are only introducing slogans. Is the declaration and thrusting into peoples faces that the Rebbe is Moshiach or that he is alive or the 3rd Beis Hamikdosh is situated at 770 Eastern Parkway having a positive or negative effect?
Is the Jewish world thronging to Chabad or withdrawing from Chabad? Is Chabad itself in harmony or not on this issue? There are plenty of mainstream Chabad Shules, Chabad Houses etc, who want absolutely nothing to do with so called meshichistim. One prominent shul in the USA by way of example has “security: to escort people out of the shul just for wearing a Yechi yarmulke if they are not prepared to accept an exchange yarmulka.
Why is this happening?
I am sure there are many Chabadniks who believe what the meshichistim believe, but have recognised that to promote the slogan publicly is counter productive. Many of them also believe in “leave well enough alone”, but wish the sign was not there in the first instance. Sure, they put up with it, but that's all it is....putting up with it. CONT.
EMMANUEL 6 (CONT.)
ReplyDeleteHad Rabbi Groner a'h not succumbed to pressure, the Yechi genie would never have escaped from the bottle. Rabbi Groner’s heart was never really in he Melb Yechi campaign…..they simply wore him down.
I have attached an interesting chronological analysis of the promotion of identifying who is the Moshiach.
The theme throughout appears to be, that if the conducting of the campaign causes even ONE Jew to be alienated from Chabad/Chassidus, the Rebbe was absolutely and passionately against the promotion.
One could be circumspect whether or not the promotion of identifying who is Moshiach should be conducted only behind closed (Lubavitch) doors or at farbrengens, but certainly as far as publicly running a campaign which might result in even one Jew being alienated, it is transparently clear the Rebbe was definitely against the promotion.
Assuming for one moment that the Rebbe was in favour of publicly making a mivtzah of his real identity, the obvious question is….
when did he change his mind about worrying if anyone was alienated, (even one person…using the Rebbes words)?
Did he believe that no one would be or could be alienated?
Or perhaps he no longer cared whether one was alienated or not?
It is simply impossible for me to believe that the Rebbe could do a 180° turn and reject his oft anxious and angry comments regarding alienating Jews from Chabad.
Was he wrong at the time when he was angry and annoyed?
No, he was right then but his concerns were simply ignored.
But his concerns have materialized!
Chabad has developed the knack of whacking square pegs into round holes however because it’s done with a sledgehammer and in one hit, the assumption is that it fits.
But it doesn’t ….no matter what one does….there will be and are gaps, which are becoming larger and larger.
For example, before 3 Tammuz Chabad passionately preached Moshiach could only come from the living, yet after 3 Tammuz “discovered” sources which have now been adopted that Moshiach could come from the dead….. not only could, but in fact will!
I have much more to say, but will leave it to another time.
But I leave the rabbis who push the Yechi line with one challenge.
I challenge them to publicly rise up on the Bimah and state the following.
I, Rabbi so and so, the son of …(mothers name and fathers name) do hereby publicly state unequivocally that I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, that I believe Moshiach is here, that I believe the Rebbe has not passed away, and that the 3rd Beis Hamikdosh is on hand at 770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn New York and in the event that through promotion of the Yechi campaign, namely that the Rebbe is moshiach, if even one Jew has been alienated from Chabad or it’s teachings or have caused even one person to give away the learning Chabad Chassidus, I am prepared to forfeit my entire Oliom Haboh in favour of the person/persons who has been alienated. I consent irrevocability to this promise.
That way, all the double-speak may be avoided and if a newspaper calls to confirm a comment or a signature, that rabbi will be able to proudly admit to what he said or did, rather than squirm behind a “No Comment”.
As for me, I believe and have always believed that G-d has been here since before infinity and will be here for eternity and beyond.
I therefore state that I have absolute confidence in whoever he selects to be the Moshiach, and if that choice is good enough for Him it’s more than good enough for me.
So, I’m not going to worry or speculate who it is or isn’t. Nothing constructive can come out of it.
I have just one request which is to Hashem and that is, whoever it is that YOU have chosen, please send him NOW!
Emmanuel
Emmanuel for Moshiach!!!
ReplyDeleteWhether or not people say or don't say "Yechi", whether or not people hang or don't hang signs, the essence and identity of Lubavitch and a Lubavitcher is no longer.
ReplyDeleteNo longer is it Rebbe. No longer is it Rebbe said this is what we should say or do or focus on now.
Now it's all about me. What do I think "Rebbe" and "Lubavitch" and "Lubavitcher" and "chosid" mean today? Which Rebbe perspective from 18 years or more ago do I choose to apply at this moment?
And therefore the issue of Yechi and its residue is also the same. What do *I* think about it.
So all who opine in this should know that they are not fighting for anyone's honor but their own.
Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe Meshichists are fighting for their own kovod, because they can't accept the fact that they were wrong. The anti's are fighting for the Rebbe's kovod.
This issue is currently being hotly debated on the vosisneias.com website with over 100 comments.
ReplyDeleteCheck it out:
http://www.vosizneias.com/49029/2010/02/09/melbourne-australia-%e2%81%a0-gutnick-challenges-yeshiva-leadership-over-yechi-sign
In particular comment #102 and #104 present good arguments in my opinion.
And I noticed that VIN pinched that excellent photograph at the top of this post - without any mention of where they lifted it from.
ReplyDeleteYankee thieves!
I see that this AJNWATCH also gets a mention here:
ReplyDeletehttp://parsha.blogspot.com/
It was a good idea in theory for the messianist establishment to "calm the masses" by having a lecture in shul between mincha and maariv on shabbos entitled "Moshiach in our times".
ReplyDeleteAnd who better to give that lecture then the son of the man who invented the loshon of "yechi adonainu moreinuy verabeinu melech hamoshiach leolom voed". After all, he successfully manages to brainwash our kids as a teacher in our school, why not have him brainwash the adults as well.
Yet all he did was spew out the same meshichist propaganda we have all heard and read time and time agian. In doing so, all he did was create more devision by firing up the mishechistim and angering and upsetting those that oppose his views even more.
In 1992, around the same time that the yechi sign went up, The heads of the messianist movement in melbourne brought out Rabbi Immanuel Shochet to lecture and promote the Rebbe as Moshiach. Rabbi Shochet is actually coming to Melbourne in April. Perhaps he should speak in Shul about "Moshiach in our times". Perhaps he could even publicly debate Lipskier or one of our own radicals. (Luckily After Gimmel Tammuz, like most of the respected rabbis in Chabad, Rabbi Shochet came to his senses). Yet the chances of our messianist establishment letting this happen are pretty slim indeed.
Anyway, my prediction is that within 5 - 10 years, most of the people who signed the petition will have left yeshivah shul. Probably half of these will no longer affiliate themselves with Chabad. And as the Jewish world continues to be less and less tolerant of messianist chabad, less and less people will be attracted to Chabad as a whole. But then there will be no petitions to remove the yechi sign because no one will care anymore about a small, insignifigant group of messianic Jews that mean absolutely nothing to the mainstream Jewish / Torah world.
More blogs linking to ajnwatch:
ReplyDeletehttp://shiratdevorah.blogspot.com/2010/02/rebbe-moshiach-and-damage-to-chabad.html
http://tinyurl.com/yznjra3
"Anonymous said... Rabbi Shochet is actually coming to Melbourne in April."
ReplyDeleteReally? what for? for how long?
Yes, Rabbi Shochet is coming in April. He will be speaking at a number of venues, and at last one of his talks will be on this topic. you can contact the RCV for more details.
ReplyDeleteI hope he says it as it is and sets things straight in this community once and for all....
What is the RCV?
ReplyDeleteRabbincal Council of Vic.....?
ReplyDeletePeople are in a difficult position
ReplyDeleteif they enunciate that after the Histalkus they cannot believe the Rebbe is Moshiach.
They face the following problem.
If the Rebbe was proved incorrect on this issue.
Maybe he made other mistakes
The real issue is one centered on the concept of infallibility.
Where in Torah does in say that any human being is infallible and never errs.
It is a frightening question but one which must be faced.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteWho said that a rebbe never makes mistakes? A rebbe is human and like every human can make an error.
ReplyDeleteMoshe rabenu made an error and guess what? He remained Moshe rabenu.
Unfortunately the weird way that some chabadniks think that the rebbe was 'perfect' is what is turning the chasidus into some sort of papal belief system RL.
Believe me, the rebbe himself would acknowledge that he made mistakes in his life.
Eg, the rebbe was totally against handing the Sinai back to the Egyptians - not believeing that it would do anything towards peace with israel. Guess what? It has worked for many decades now. That border is one of the safest that israel has.
So the rebbe got it wrong.
Still doesn't make him oys-rebbe.
None of you commenters have the right to call yourselves Rabbi. You're all a joke.
ReplyDelete