As surprising as this may seem to our readers, in this case we feel that publicity on this subject and revelation of all the facts out may bring some concrete rewards for Kosher consumers – especially those in Sydney. (And after all, the vast majority of AJNWATCH’s demographic are kosher consumers.)
We invite representatives from all of Australia’s Kashrut organizations to have their say and we especially interested in the thoughts of those working in the ‘industry’ including mashgichim and administrative staff.
Here are the 2 items from the AJN which started it all. These are followed by a selection of emails that we have since received.
Meanwhile for some background material on Aussie Kashrut see the excellent recent post by Kosherman:
http://ajnwatch.blogspot.com/2009/10/guest-post-by-kosherman-concise-history.html
From Bondiman:
I am very surprised that Adass lets its caterer do business in Sydney. Each city's caterers should stick to their own turf and let the other make a living.
From anon:
Another unnecessary attack on the authority of Rabbi Moshe Gutnick.
From Miriam:
About time that some action is taken against the ridiculously high charges by Sydney's premier caterer. Do they - and Rabbi Gutnick - really think that all of us can afford to spend $25-50,000 on a wedding? My husband is a teacher and it would take him 2 years to accumulate that kind of tax-paid money. And only if meanwhile we didn't pay rent or feed and clothe our 3 kids. When the time comes, we will definitely be contacting Eshel in Melb.
From George in Detroit:
As an ex-Aussie, my friends keep me up-to-date with what is happening down under. (I am also a fervent fan of your great blog.) Thus I was totally shocked to learn that our brethren in Sydney are subjected to such ridiculous catering and kashrus costs. How on earth does an average person afford this? Shouldn't the rabbis there be trying to encourage Kashrut and be on the forefront in demanding lower costs? I feel very sorry for my Sydney compatriots who have to spend a small fortune to line the pockets of caterers and rabbis.
From anon:
I think it is wonderful that unlike Melbourne, Sydney has a single Kashrut authority. This way we all have the same kosher standard - unlike the situation in Melb. But sadly this non-competitiveness comes at a very high price for us. Catering costs are double, triple and even more than in melb and the kashrut charge too seems to be 2 or 3 times it is in Melb. Thus while I praise the single authority system the lack of competition creates a monopoly situation where the rabbi and caterer can get away with the most outrageous charges. Rabbi Moshe Gutnick, who seems to be the only rabbi involved in this, should be leader the battle for us kosher consumers and ensuring that we can all afford kosher simchot without facing bankruptcy.
Emily wrote:
Question. Where does all the money paid for kosher supervision go to? At $6.60 per head with the average wedding and barmitzva having 300-500 guests that totals around $2500 per party. If there are 100 such functions a year, that comes to over a quarter of million dollars. And reading the engagement and wedding notices in the AJN there are actually far more than that. Plus many, many other smaller affairs. Who is getting rich on our backs? Does the NSWKA publish a financial report annually? If so, where can it be viewed? It should make some very interesting reading - especially for non-rich Jews, who have to take out bank loans for their children's weddings.
Aaron wrote:
I think the AJN report does a disservice to our community. Rabbi Moshe Gutnick has been and continues to be a loyal servant of Kashrut consumers. I have no idea of what his income or salary is, but I doubt that he is paid anywhere near the value of his work. While the other rabbis do nothing about Kashrut except enjoy the benefits of Rabbi Gutnick's work, he spends his days and nights travelling all over the state and even NZ to advance Kashrut. It's about time we showed some appreciation to this one man band.
I think Lea weiss's letter says it all
ReplyDeleteThe catering situation is very bad here but has anyone looked into the reasons why our meat costs 25-35% more than in Melb? Meat is something taht we feed our families almost daily. Why should be be forced to pay so much?
ReplyDeleteCompetition is needed urgently. For ctaerers, buthhers and kashrus supervisors.
To the best of my information NSWKA has always allowed the use of Melbourne's Continental and Solomon butchers products. Can someone explain why Adass is any worse?
ReplyDeleteMy Melbourne-based son tells me that nearly all his Lubavitch friends buy their meat from Melb Kosher butchers beause the proprietor Yankel Unfanger (ex-Sydney boy) is such a mentch.
Can Rabbi Gutnick explain he allows Melb's Chabad and Mizrachi meat but not Adass?
Kosher Supplier.............
ReplyDeleteWhen will people learn to accept that Sydney is one of the most expensive places to live, Jewish & Kosher or not.
Been there & done that.
Compare apples with apples.
Real estate prices are nearly double-Is that because of Kashrut Charges?
The florists can be more then double-Kosher Flowers?
Fabric coverings on the chairs at a wedding can be 3 or 4 times the price- Kosher Fabric?
The band can be more then double- Kosher music? Jewish yes, Kosher ?
Halls can be 4 or 5 times the price- are they owned or run by the KA?
Even if the NSW KA meat the caterers use is $10/kg more expensive then the Melbourne meat,
at an average serving size of 250g of meat on the main plate, that's a difference of $2.50 per head, not the $50-$100 difference in catering costs!
Yes, Kosher weddings are cheaper in NY, its called supply & demand, its how the world works.Look at the numbers! The number of people B"H, Simchas B"H, Caters, Halls, Bands, the choice can be just about unlimited.
Wake up!
Sydney is a beautiful place to live, but like most things in life it comes at a price.
kosher supplier makes a strong point. however it is no mitzvah to spend huge amounts of money on kosher weddings. therefore if we now have a choice and can get melb caterers to come over at a fraction of the price, shouldn't the rabbis be encouraging this? and aren't we really stupid not to take this option?
ReplyDeletethe same goes for kosher meat. it's not as if this has be be airfreighted in from NY or UK. we can (and many of us do) get it from melb and save ourselves a small fortune.
the caterers and rabbis in sydney aren't worth THAT much more.
As a former mashgiach and a Sydney kosher consumer who well remembers the turf wars of the pre-1990s between the Sydney Beth Din and Yeshiva kashrut authorities, the NSW KA is a great boon for the city. There is now one high standard of kashrus that everyone can feel comfortable eating, unlike in Melbourne where there is squabbling (even Rav Beck Shlita won't eat his own caterers' food - he brings his own food to chasanas). The KA has been upfront about its supervision charges and the organisation is overseen by a board of management who are corporate professionals. Unfortunately, the limited kosher market in Sydney has meant that the few kosher caterers - particular passion8 - feel they can charge the earth... and of course, everyone blames it own Rav Gutnick and the KA.
ReplyDeleteChaim Levy
Rabbi Beck doesn't eat from anyone - except his rebetzen's cooking. Neither did any of teh previous Adass rabonom. And that is ho wit is and has always been with charedi rabbonim - they are machmir and only eat what is cooked in their own kitchen.
ReplyDeleteI always find it a bit 'unrabbinical' seeing rabbis and their wives eating out in fast food joints. To me it doesn't add to kavod and respect of the rabbinate.
Chaim, I agree that -Unfortunately, the limited kosher market in Sydney has meant that the few kosher caterers - particular passion8 - feel they can charge the earth...
ReplyDeleteBut I repeat what I wrote earlier now that we have a far cheaper option ie, getting a Melb caterer, we are no longer bound to the high cost locals. Rabbi gutnick should immediately undertake talks with those Melb caters and bring them under his wing thereby offering sydney consumers a fairer option. is that so hard to understand?
The KA has been upfront about its supervision charges and the organisation is overseen by a board of management who are corporate professionals (from chaim Levy)
ReplyDeleteWho are these corporate professionals on the BoM?
Who elects them and for what period? Are there any financial statements available? I hear that the melb KA publishes a financial report annually.
What are the salaries paid to staff, especially RMG and RAG?
ex-KA mashgiach
A point that seems to have been forgotten in all this, the food at the Nagel wedding was beautifully presented, plenty and tasty. I have been to many sydney expensive weddings which are rumored to have cost 3 times he price and cannot think of anything that made it worth it more than this one. So mazel tov to Rita and Tom and thanks for opening the eyes of sydney's kosher consumers
ReplyDeleteKosher supplier in reply:
ReplyDeleteWendy,
The KA is not against Melbourne caters coming to Sydney.
They have come before & used Sydney meat/chickens & still charged more or less the Melbourne prices give or take for transport etc.
My point is, Sydney is expensive & the higher costs of a Simcha in Sydney is NOT the KA's fault.
They do work with the Melbourne caterers & the Sydney families wanting to use them & have been very accommodating & helpful.
Why hasn't anyone opened up another catering business?
If all the fancy halls must have top grade caterers, which excludes many others from gaining access to these halls, and Passion 8 is a Class A top grade caterer who does have access to these places.........
Why won't Passion 8 start a "Home Brand" catering service for people who can't afford a Passion 8 simcha? They have the utensils, facilities, just make it without all the high cost fancy extras.
If you have a beautiful hall, nicely decorated, a good band & a beautiful lively Simcha, the food comes & goes, and I don't think it should be the main expense & focal point of the Simcha which is used to Keep up with the Jones'.
Don't blame the KA & use them as the scape goat.
They say..Knowing you are sick is half the cure....Find the real problems & then solve these problems.
Kosher supplier in reply:
ReplyDeleteThe KA is not against Melbourne caters coming to Sydney. They have come before & used Sydney meat/chickens & still charged more or less the Melbourne prices give or take for transport etc.
********
The question being asked in Melb is - how come RMG has in the past allowed his eateries and caterers to 'import' meat from 2 of Melb's butchers - Continental and Solomon - but baulks at Adass?
Does he consider the reliabilty or yiras shomayim of his brother rabbi Mottel to be of a more accceptable standard that that of rabbi Beck?
This is why many in both the Sydney and Melb communities were accusing Rabbi Moshe G with claims of hypocrisy and/or pandering to Chabad-only shechita.
Can we get an answer to this question?
carn the blues said...
ReplyDeleteThe question being asked in Melb is - how come RMG has in the past allowed his eateries and caterers to 'import' meat from 2 of Melb's butchers - Continental and Solomon - but baulks at Adass?
REPLY simple.the other 2 have Chabad shochtim and rabbis. Adass only has rav Beck whose yiras shomayim RMG must have some doubts about